close your eyes and imagine the elastic in the waistbands of cheap clothing.
or one of the gummy erasers of decades past, small chunks of which could be gently and lovingly — with a little friction and heat — drawn out to a length of several feet, starting from less than an inch, given just the right amount of pressure.
the fundamental polymeric structure of these materials will gradually distend in response to constant pressure, stretching the material permanently — if, and only if, this pressure is skilfully applied just beyond the elastic’s threshold of comfort. if the pressure is steadily applied at this barely supra-threshold rate, the material is gradually slackened to a length unattainable by a single, more powerful impulse.
women are like this, too.
as are men.
as are frogs in pots of water slowly heated to boiling.
but women are especially vulnerable, since their very nature compels them to search for that je ne sais quoi** that is exactly 0.1 standard deviations past their “limit”.
pushing the envelope.
so, how is the elastic stretched?
THRILL is a quality that begins a few inches inside the envelope of prior experience.
DISCOMFORT, however, does not begin until a few inches outside the envelope.
there are, of course, exceptions; some phobics feel discomfort will into the interior of the envelope, while some adrenaline junkies don’t feel thrill until miles outside it. however, for most decently well-adjusted people, the above conditions obtain.
the most addictive experiences for women (and for men, too), then, are those that lie on, OR BARELY OUTSIDE, the envelope of experience — simultaneously maximizing the factor of thrill and minimizing that of discomfort.
importantly, though — and this is the single factor that causes many long-term relationships to fail, especially among PUA the types who have learned to approach and seduce women at high velocities — this tension on a woman’s “envelope” will gradually cause the elastic to expand.
and the Thrill and Discomfort borderlines recede.
and she chases them.
and a slut is made.
and elastic never goes back.
—
**in a very literal sense, to be explained in future postings.
2010/06/20 at 04:00
I had the image of a paper envelope and a rubber elastic band in mind, so the analogy was lost on me. I get the message though.
Keep escalating with fantasies so sex is unpredictable, fresh, and customized to your liking, yes?
This reads like an exciting pilot of a promising series.
2010/06/20 at 11:34
jules — as you can see, the post is now much shorter than its original version, which contained so many ideas at once as to resemble lunatic ravings.
there are many ways to accelerate a relationship. you mention accelerating in a forward direction, but remember the most useful thing your physics teacher told you: braking and turning are also “acceleration”.
keep coming back.
2010/06/20 at 18:54
I can see that you have had long term relationships. “Keep coming back” are some of the wisest words written on the topic.
A balance between rest and movement is ideal. It depends also on what state of rest has been existing, as it determines the degrees of movement that may be forged in heat or more softly composed. The male is not the only source to beget romance and movement in a relationship. To know of what length a lover’s love style will receive/respond to movement, we as women must also become a canvasser of our subject. Romance is investing in the seduction of another, your rubber band metaphor symbolizes that dynamic well.
2010/06/20 at 20:46
anouk — I can see that you have had long term relationships.
depends.
in two of three senses yes, in the other sense no.
in the sense of literal, elapsed time, measured in years?
yes.
in the sense of learning the woman’s deepest (and darkest) nature, and molding that nature to our own mutual needs?
yes.
in the sense of getting to the point where the relationship feels like a “long-term relationship”?
no.
i like to keep stretching the elastic.
2010/06/20 at 20:54
I remember those little gummy erasers well. I used to eat small chunks of them when bored in primary school (along with pencil wood, paper, liga biscuits, own hair & fingernails etc. etc. (I’m not sure if your theory has factored in the idea of the woman actually eating the elastic, but we’ll let that pass)
I think your theory is a good one, and reflects my observations & experience (though I think it disregards the fact that often the stretching process begins in childhood, with the father/daughter relationship, also, some women are more amenable to being stretched than others)
However what I am really interested in at present is your assertion above & in comments on Roissy that men can be stretched too, albeit not quite to the same extent. Carried through, wouldn’t it follow that a PUA of long-standing (even one who was originally in the madonna-preferring Third Quadrant) is never going to be happy with anything less than a slut, the only choice being left to them is to make their own as opposed to acquiring one ready-made, and that accordingly they can only by definition find happiness in the First Quadrant, no matter how hard they may long to fit into the Fourth? (not that there is anything wrong with being in the First Quadrant, btw).
[ed: “quadrants” will be the topic of several future posts. if you have no idea what this means, then, for now, click here.]
This ties in with a point I made on a recent thread on Tumult & Discord re. Gone with the Wind – Rhett Butler admires good women, and hates sluts, but is irresistibly attracted to sluts, and, despite his best efforts, cannot feel any non-platonic attraction to good women. I’ve seen this pattern in other novels, and in real life.
On another note, how on earth is a girl to find out whether a man prefers a madonna or a slut? (if a PUA, I think for the reason above the preference is already set in stone, but for others?)
2010/06/20 at 20:57
PS: it is of considerable significance that the only time Rhett ever actually performs to full capacity in the bedroom is after Scarlett is (unjustly, as it happens, on that particular occasion) shamed as a scarlet woman.
2010/06/20 at 21:09
often the stretching process begins in childhood, with the father/daughter relationship, also, some women are more amenable to being stretched than others
not all fibers have the same elastane content, nor are they subjected to the same duration or intensity of cross-linking in their manufacture.
hey, you went there first.
However what I am really interested in at present is your assertion above & in comments on Roissy that men can be stretched too, albeit not quite to the same extent.
of course men can be stretched as well. the difference is that the stretching of male elastic is mostly a function of two things: (a) pushing physical and sexual boundaries, the part that is held in common with female stretching, and (b) increasingly attractive female partners.
as for (a), the point — of which i suspect you are well aware — is that men who have had considerably diverse and intense sexual experiences will never again be satisfied by “vanilla” sex. this is the basis of your notion that such men are consigned to choosing among and/or manufacturing sluts; that seems accurate.
but manufacturing sluts is fun!
it’s not as enjoyable to get them off the rack.
as for (b), the point here is that men become accustomed to the attractiveness level of their partners. if a man is used to being with hot and/or sexy women — remember these are different — then his elastic is stretched to the point where women who are lower on both scales no longer register on his sexual radar.
—
there are also wildcards, which i will explain in a later post, that increase the width of the thrill region while simultaneously decreasing the width of the discomfort region. (i may actually try to render diagrams for this, in the relevant posts.)
for women, the biggest such wild card i can think of is fame. for men, length of most recent dry spell.
2010/06/20 at 21:25
No, my point is not that being attracted to sluts is a bad thing at all for PUAs, the difficulty is that a lot of PUAs seem to be under the impression that, the more alpha they are, the better suited they are to the extreme madonna type.
There is actually a comment on the Tumult & Discord thread to the effect that the alpha cad (Rhett) and the madonna (Melanie) are meant for one another, I think this is not the case. I think there is a dissonance there between platonic love (e.g. the Alias Clio worship) and actual attraction.
My point is that if PUAs (and indeed other men with extensive sexual experience of sluts) pick a madonna type of woman for an LTR it is never going to work, although I agree that they have the option of changing her (assuming that she is sufficiently amenable to change) they are not going to do this because her emotional value to them is based on her being vanilla. In fact, if she even started to move in this direction herself she would be dumped. It is very difficult for the woman in this situation.
Btw your theory would also explain the Roissy theory that a woman would have to be a 10 to keep a man interested in her in the long-term, presumably for a PUA aiming for a madonna the hotness would have to be stratospheric to compensate for the lack of sluttiness. The difficulty of course is that even a 10 does not stay a 10 forever.
The difficulty with the wild cards is their limited duration. Length of most recent dry spell would appear to be a very limited wild card, once the dry spell ends presumably so does the wild card. Fame, although fleeting, is probably more permanent.
2010/06/20 at 21:27
However what I am really interested in at present is your assertion above & in comments on Roissy that men can be stretched too, albeit not quite to the same extent. Carried through, wouldn’t it follow that a PUA of long-standing (even one who was originally in the madonna-preferring Third Quadrant) is never going to be happy with anything less than a slut, the only choice being left to them is to make their own as opposed to acquiring one ready-made
i think you’ve got it here, and you have nailed what i described earlier as “the curse of pygmalion”.
it’s always interesting to see what conclusions people will draw when they go one step beyond the traditional dogma of their community.
in the PUA community, the traditional dogma in question is the notion of “all women have an inner slut”, inveterate hypergamy, etc.
however, the PUA community is notorious for its radio silence on WHAT TO DO about this sort of thing, in the context of relationships of more than fleeting duration.
the implicit assumption seems to be that people should just go on with “horizontal integration” forever, pushing the rock of sisyphus up that hill over and over again for the same level of reward.
the problem with this assumption, of course, is that few people are given to this sort of reward structure in the first place — far more people are “builders” than “explorers”, and most explorers eventually mellow out and become builders after some of their testosterone washes out.
so, even accomplished PUA’s are in the dark when it comes to selecting and managing a long-term partner. worse, they are equipped with a well-practiced skill set that is extremely ill suited to a long-term relationship, in that they are accustomed to stretching the elastic at a velocity much greater than anything they can reasonably sustain.
therefore, they often come to the incorrect conclusion that they should go hard-core fourth-quadrant and look for the most innocent, virginal, freshfaced girl they can find. this is simply setting them up for heartbreak down the road.
there is not enough information out there right now for men who want to build a solid long-term relationship that will stay sexually exciting.
this is an art that has changed drastically from earlier ages, when sexual excitement was at least publicly considered an extravagant accessory.
2010/06/20 at 21:27
—
also, note that the problem you have cited here is certainly not limited to PUA[‘s] of long-standing”.
some men’s elastic can be stretched simply by looking at lots of porn.
some women’s elastic can be stretched simply by reading lots of romance novels.
taken in moderation, either of these two inputs can be helpful in diversifying one’s sexual portfolio (most people are incredibly bad at improvising anything, so we shouldn’t expect any better in the bedroom).
however, taken in extreme doses, these things can start to exert a toxic influence on relationships, as they lead people to start expecting level 10 when they only have the skill set to manage a relationship at level 3.
take a look at the slavish devotion that hordes of male fans will lavish on their favorite adult actresses.
that is some powerful but misdirected shit.
if these guys could just learn the basics of feeding, watering, breaking, and training a woman, they would feel that same intensity of devotion FOR THEIR OWN WOMAN. and the woman would feel it back.
so much potential. so much gold flowing by in the rapids while these guys sit on the bank, passively watching it go by.
2010/06/20 at 21:32
The dissonance I am talking about is really the dissonance between emotional attachment and sexual attraction.
Some people rationalise it in terms of a man not being able to become sexually attracted to a woman to whom he is emotionally attached, this is as much a fallacy as the belief that all women are naturally attracted to cads (which you correctly debunked on Roissy)
I think the difficulty is that extensive sexual experience with sluts changes what a man is sexually attracted to without changing what he is emotionally attracted to, it would seem to occur with Third Quadrant men who progress to Fourth Quadrant status.
As regards First Quadrant men, it would appear that at the extreme of that Quadrant, as stated by you earlier, the emotional connection becomes subsumed in the drive for power, but this is not as problematic in one sense, if you do not feel emotion for anybody then there is no risk of confusing emotion with sexual attraction.
One final question: could porn usage in men have a similar effect to extensive sexual experience in terms of stretching, so as to move them from the Second to the Third Quadrant, for instance? Or are men in the Third Quadrant (betas attracted to sluts) just naturally that way?
2010/06/20 at 21:36
you have nailed what i described earlier as “the curse of pygmalion”.
Aw, thank you. I am so pleased, this is very rewarding in terms of working things out.
I see that you got to my point on porn usage while I was still typing it. I am pleased about this too.
Yes, I agree with you in terms of romance novels.
I also agree with you that it seems a terrible waste, that people cannot translate what they want into a real relationship.
Thanks so much for this, it is really very helpful.
2010/06/20 at 21:39
No, my point is not that being attracted to sluts is a bad thing at all for PUAs, the difficulty is that a lot of PUAs seem to be under the impression that, the more alpha they are, the better suited they are to the extreme madonna type.
well, yeah.
but why would you expect them to know better?
would you expect a small child taking its first steps through a bangladeshi marsh to understand that those fierce bengal tigers can be tamed?
these guys are going through a learning process.
ironically, with all their talk about happy smiley ethnic diversity, a lot of these guys are missing the importance of the one thing into which the most insight could be contributed by a boy from a world of bricks, concrete, tricks, and heat: the navigation of raw, uncensored human dynamics, unencumbered by the thick layers of upper-class decorum that would otherwise take decades to peel off.
There is actually a comment on the Tumult & Discord thread to the effect that the alpha cad (Rhett) and the madonna (Melanie) are meant for one another, I think this is not the case. I think there is a dissonance there between platonic love (e.g. the Alias Clio worship) and actual attraction.
the reason for my writing these posts is so that they will know where to go next.
My point is that if PUAs (and indeed other men with extensive sexual experience of sluts) pick a madonna type of woman for an LTR it is never going to work, although I agree that they have the option of changing her (assuming that she is sufficiently amenable to change) they are not going to do this because her emotional value to them is based on her being vanilla. In fact, if she even started to move in this direction herself she would be dumped. It is very difficult for the woman in this situation.
this is the curse of pygmalion, which, as you have pointed out, is a problem just as much for the statue as for pygmalion himself.
Btw your theory would also explain the Roissy theory that a woman would have to be a 10 to keep a man interested in her in the long-term, presumably for a PUA aiming for a madonna the hotness would have to be stratospheric to compensate for the lack of sluttiness. The difficulty of course is that even a 10 does not stay a 10 forever.
yep.
it’s all shockingly simple when you put it together, isn’t it?
The difficulty with the wild cards is their limited duration. Length of most recent dry spell would appear to be a very limited wild card, once the dry spell ends presumably so does the wild card. Fame, although fleeting, is probably more permanent
the difference is that once fame wears down, it is worn down forever.
also — and this is going to be the theme of a later post, too — the point of long-term relationship game is to flip the script** so that triggers like takeaways and dry spells start to work on the woman, rather than on the man as is traditional.
selective deprivation is a very useful tool for a man in a decades-long relationship who is simply starting to run out of creative ideas.
—
**this explains the header image, in which the script is upside down.
2010/06/20 at 21:47
I think the difficulty is that extensive sexual experience with sluts changes what a man is sexually attracted to without changing what he is emotionally attracted to, it would seem to occur with Third Quadrant men who progress to Fourth Quadrant status.
yes.
precisely.
As regards First Quadrant men, it would appear that at the extreme of that Quadrant, as stated by you earlier, the emotional connection becomes subsumed in the drive for power, but this is not as problematic in one sense, if you do not feel emotion for anybody then there is no risk of confusing emotion with sexual attraction.
but it’s problematic in a different way.
just as sexually inexperienced men are often unable to control their ejaculations when they finally get the opportunity, emotionally inexperienced men will often be unable to handle the emotional analogue of ejaculation when they are first thrown into emotionally charged situations.
just watch what happens when one of these long-standing PUA guys is betrayed by a woman he stupidly took for a madonna — a possibility whose likelihood is compounded by the fact that this “madonna” is probably a closet slut who was attracted to the man precisely for his rogue reputation.
women are not ignorant of the twin grapevines of chitchat and intuition; many PUA type guys start out with laughable blank-slate assumptions.
i’ve rescued at least one of them from taking his life in this sort of situation.
2010/06/20 at 22:04
I can quite understand how the above could happen but not so sure that the guy you are talking about is a First Quadrant guy, he sounds more like someone who is on the edge of the Fourth Quadrant and about to fall either into the abyss or back into the Third (or maybe even into the Second) Quadrant, he is a classic example of the curse of Pygmalion.
My comment re. lack of emotion was directed to the following categories
(a) guys who are born into the First Quadrant
(b) guys who move there from the Second e.g. through Game or indeed Fame.
(c) guys who start in the Third, move to the Fourth, see the curse of Pygmalion approaching and neatly sidesstep it by moving into the First (your guy doesn’t seem to have done this).
Btw is giving up emotion a necessity of being in the First Quadrant or is that only at the more extreme end? Is it the case that guys in (c) have to relinquish the whole idea of emotional attachment, or is it more a question of changing the focus of that attachment and, if so, how to do it?
2010/06/20 at 22:06
Really your story is very ironic, because the two people involved sound well matched, it is just that one of them thought he wanted something other than what he got and what would have suited him. The woman, as is often the case in these matters, appears to have been more clear-sighted.
2010/06/20 at 22:12
Really your story is very ironic, because the two people involved sound well matched, it is just that one of them thought he wanted something other than what he got and what would have suited him. The woman, as is often the case in these matters, appears to have been more clear-sighted
yeah.
in fact, if these lessons could somehow be disseminated to enough young men, a great deal of the modern world’s relationship dystopia could be overhauled fairly quickly.
the problem is that i don’t yet know how to express these ideas in terms that are both simple enough (it’s an ADD soundbite world) and compelling enough (young men are notorious for their deafness).
in fact, i’m not sure whether these ideas even can be expressed in such terms.
the identity of the messenger is also important.
2010/06/20 at 22:13
In fact, I see that your quadrants are based on sexual attraction, not emotional attraction, so that in fact a man who is primarily sexually attracted to sluts, irrespective of where his emotions lie, falls into the First Quadrant. By definition, therefore, most if not all PUAs are in this quadrant, as per your example.
Therefore some men in the First Quadrant must retain some emotion & belief in love as an end rather than a means, particularly near the intersection with the Fourth.
So you were right in assigning your friend to the First Quadrant and I was wrong in putting him in the Fourth.
And my statement re. lack of emotion in the First Quadrant is wrong too.
2010/06/20 at 22:15
The transition with the men in question seems to be accordingly
1. Third Quadrant
2. a brief spell in the Fourth Quadrant after they become alpha
3. then the inevitable transition to the First Quadrant.
2010/06/20 at 22:15
it appears that i’m going to have to do a “quadrants” post soon, lest readers not have a clue what’s going on here.
2010/06/20 at 22:19
i posted a link in comment 5.
here it is again:
Quadrants
i can see that this topic is going to be a mainstay of future discussions, so I’ll try to get that post up soon.
2010/06/20 at 22:21
I don’t yet know how to express these ideas in terms that are both simple enough (it’s an ADD soundbite world) and compelling enough (young men are notorious for their deafness).
in fact, i’m not sure whether these ideas even can be expressed in such terms.
the identity of the messenger is also important.
Quite honestly, if you could even get it across to women you would be doing us all a favor. It is very difficult for a woman to know that she is not enough for someone she is in a relationship with, and even to know or suspect why she is not enough, but not to have the opportunity to change, even if she wants to (change on the part of a madonna, as you pointed out above, inevitably ends the relationship).
Most women tend to blame their level of hotness for this, and try to make changes, which of course make no difference whatsoever (I have seen some women resort to plastic surgery, to no avail) leading to the conclusion that it is a different problem, quite likely the one you have identified.
Incidentally big business (including the plastic surgery industry, the cosmetic industry, gyms & the clothes industry) make an awful lot of money out of women in this position, the current arrangement suits it very well. I am not suggesting this is deliberate (conspiracy theory only goes so far) but there is a nice irony here.
2010/06/20 at 22:30
all true, but at heart i’m more a man of action than a man of analysis.
plus.
here, educating women can help them understand the situations in which they find themselves, but as a man of action i find, at best, cold comfort in mere understanding.
not to mention that my little sliver of the collective conscience would not abide giving women one more reason, on top of the uncountable number they already have, to walk out on their relationships.
the key, then, is to figure out how to disseminate this information to the leaders of the dance, not to the followers. although if the followers have an equal awareness, the dance can be so much more intricate.
2010/06/20 at 22:45
I agree that mere understanding is not going to do the woman much good, there are very few genuine members of the fourth quadrant (much sought after ime). The second and third quadrants are not particularly appealing for a woman not necessarily wanting to be the person in charge in the relationship whereas that portion of the first quadrant integrated into mainstream society appears to be operating under the mistaken belief that it is in the fourth quadrant as outlined above.
It is almost easier for the woman to give up on relationships in this situation.
I agree that change will have to come from the man himself and the one certainty is that women cannot be messengers of change in this regard.
PS: if the firsts who think they are fourths were awakened to their true nature it might alleviate the not enough to go round point you drew attention to on my blog.
PPS: I see you have modified your definition of slut to include monogamous sluts, although perhaps this was my misunderstanding rather than any change on your part.
2010/06/20 at 22:52
sdaedalus, yes.
that is what scientists would call the “statement of problem” here, and i must say that you have done an eloquent job of helping to state the problem.
I agree that change will have to come from the man himself and the one certainty is that women cannot be messengers of change in this regard
renaissance.
I see you have modified your definition of slut to include monogamous sluts
monogamy is not an intensive property.
in fact, one of the most compelling reasons why many sluts slut around in the first place is because their desire to find a true master, to whom they can submit monogamously (whether he is monogamous in return or not), is stronger than that of average women.
2010/06/20 at 23:02
Thanks, this is very helpful.
Your blog takes the issues discussed by Roissy, surprisingly accurate as regards women’s feelings & men’s actions but not entirely accurate as regards women’s actions (or as far as I can see men’ feelings) & runs with them a step further.
I think what you have come up with is as good an explanation of the problems commonly defined as the madonna-whore complex as I have seen (and god knows, I have read enough on this issue to last me a lifetime). It possibly does not explain all cases (the man’s relationship with his mother does imo play a role in some cases) but it does explain a lot of them.
Thanks. Goodnight. Appreciate this.
2010/06/20 at 23:02
This is a mind fuck.
I just want to learn what this guy has to offer in terms of gender relations. It seems like he knows a lot about long term material as well.
2010/06/20 at 23:44
“in the sense of literal, elapsed time, measured in years?
yes.”
–yes, this is what I meant. Time does bring with it knowledge that cannot be obtained otherwise.
“so, even accomplished PUA’s are in the dark when it comes to selecting and managing a long-term partner. worse, they are equipped with a well-practiced skill set that is extremely ill suited to a long-term relationship, in that they are accustomed to stretching the elastic at a velocity much greater than anything they can reasonably sustain.
therefore, they often come to the incorrect conclusion that they should go hard-core fourth-quadrant and look for the most innocent, virginal, freshfaced girl they can find. this is simply setting them up for heartbreak down the road.”
–absolute brilliant insight.
2010/06/21 at 01:01
I think I’ve got the tune at this point, if not all the lyrics, but the quadrants business is still striking me as unnecessarily complicated.
It would seem a lot more straightforward to simply say:
Have you ever appreciated a pornstar’s bedside manner? You can convert any woman to that, gradually, and should. It’s a journey you take together to keep the spark alive, tunneling ever deeper towards depravity’s molten core as Earth’s surface freezes in the familiarity’s nuclear winter.
2010/06/21 at 01:16
After having read the sdaedalus comments, I am enlightened.
However, I think sharing out my woman’s body will always be in the realm of morally revolting taboo fantasy. It would take a very special woman to overcome my preference for only going where no man has gone before. There are too many women for any woman to be that special.
What a pimp does is different; it’s business. To do it for fun with a girl you presumably have feelings for, is incomprehensible to me. I still subscribe to Shakespearean notions of love, however much Sade I take on board. The last few psi’s of celodurismo aren’t worth demolishing half my soul.
I think it will be interesting to see how your targeted builders respond to this type of anecdote.
2010/06/21 at 01:48
jb, the quadrants are the diagnostic aspect, while your comments are the prescriptive aspect.
you can give prescriptions without diagnoses, but then you run into a heisenberg uncertainty principle type issue, in which you have to choose between vagueness and overspecialization.
2010/06/21 at 03:40
I see the benefits of the quadrant concept now.
This is the first thing in all the PUA literature I’ve read, that makes a dent in my virgin preference. The more I think about it, the less it matters – not to zero, but as merely one component of overall sexual value.
So, congratulations on unveiling the matrix.
2010/06/21 at 05:01
JB
I think sharing out my woman’s body will always be in the realm of morally revolting taboo fantasy. It would take a very special woman to overcome my preference for only going where no man has gone before.
JB see the comment from johnny above on monogamy, this might be relevant to your point above.
2010/06/21 at 05:03
Also, comment re. self-manufacture being an alternative to ready-made.
I’m not sure that a virgin preference can’t still be accommodated within johnny’s matrix.
2010/06/21 at 05:40
heh sd, you’re doing a wonderful job as my unpaid teacher’s aide. and to think that you wore your hair up in pigtails as a schoolgirl … ah, too much; too much.
—
jb
I think sharing out my woman’s body will always be in the realm of morally revolting taboo fantasy. It would take a very special woman to overcome my preference for only going where no man has gone before
jb, you can “share out” a woman in ways that don’t involve contact with foreign flesh.
think of it as a continuum, where 0 is guys who claim they want their women to cover everything up in public, and 10 is pimping the pussy.
lots of guys will claim zero, but most of them are lying. of the ones who aren’t lying, most have women who have just gotten fat.
you see where i’m going here — if your woman is hot and you like to take her out in sexy outfits, you’re already at 1 or 2 on this scale.
you can even sell her body without anyone ever touching her. dude! have you seen the things that men will pay for, with respect to adult stars?
if your woman is hot, and enough of an exhibitionist (whether by nature or by encouragement), you can make loads of money by selling her body just to men’s eyes and fantasies.
i agree that most men will not make it to 10, or 9 or 8, on this scale, but to deny that having a hot girl on your arm is ultimately, distantly related to pimping is to be myopic.
i imagine that this blog will be somewhat controversial if it ever gains a substantial readership.
2010/06/21 at 06:36
Haha. Now that, I will have to give to you. It is a continuum. And yeah, I do like slutty arm candy.
Depending on how slutty the girl was when I acquired her, I could definitely see climbing that scale. Without ever getting past 6, most likely. I think I still have some aesthetic reluctance to turning out a former madonna into a complete (public) slut.
I’m not so sure that 10 is pimping the pussy. Similar to some PUA’s reluctance to put a cap on female beauty by awarding a 10 in looks, I’d be reluctant to put a limit on this category of depravity. It’s a 9 in my book.
Now you’re really putting me on the slippery slope. I don’t know what’s more amazing, that you’ve reconciled this message for the masses with your sliver of collective consciousness, or that I agree with you on its benefit.
Cheers to controversy.
2010/06/21 at 07:33
Or are men in the Third Quadrant (betas attracted to sluts) just naturally that way?
Given that I was looking at photos of sexy photos Lil’ Kim back in 8th grade over a crummy dial up connection, and my penchant for girls with nails, high heels, slutty clothes, and makeup while finding most normal girls to be dull and sexless, and I’m tempted to argue that some of us in that quadrant are born that way. Even the girls I find attractive in real life have a bit of the sexual look with a hint of cuteness. I’ve jokingly said that these men are nature’s way of providing slutty looking single moms with beta males willing to take care of their kids. Take a soft beta who finds slutty women popular and pair him up with a single mom who wants some support to make up for the missing resources for her kids.
2010/06/21 at 08:14
Thank you David, that’s what I thought.
I would suspect that the phenomenon of men who seek madonnas against their natural instincts is not confined to alphas (although I think there are special reasons why it may apply most strongly in the case of self-made alphas).
In other words, there are a lot of Second Quadrant men who think of themselves as Third or Fourth Quadrant.
Full credit to you for being honest about your own inclinations.
Btw, what do you think annoyed Roissy most – your refusal to move on from your beta status or your admitted preference for sluts? Or your unhappiness generally?
You seem in a better place now – I think the discussion at Traditional Marriage helped? It would be very interesting to see how Cecilia/Alte and johnnyfive got on in practice. Their views are not necessarily that opposed.
2010/06/21 at 09:28
Haha. Now that, I will have to give to you. It is a continuum.
yes it is.
this is one of people’s biggest problems in life: thinking in terms of binaries.
madonna. whore.
win. lose.
freedom. slavery.
most of life’s “binaries” are mere heuristics. they are simple models that render a workable first-order approximation of the world: the shadows on the wall of plato’s cave.
why stop at the shadows?
see, this little thing called a “long-term relationship” depends fundamentally on the idea of a slow burn.
a gradual deformation of the elastic.
an unhurried yet inexorable descent down a winding spiral staircase into a delicious inferno.
how can you have a gradual descent, when you think in terms of binaries?
you can’t.
the good news is that this is not the only continuum, too. there are lots of other continua, each based on a different weakness of women.
because the weaknesses of women are myriad.
your woman is a mixing board, with lots and lots and lots of sliders.
the good news?
you don’t even have to nudge more than one of the sliders at a time.
this is the public slut slider.
it is one of many.
stay tuned. (heh. tuned.)
2010/06/21 at 09:44
Depending on how slutty the girl was when I acquired her, I could definitely see climbing that scale. Without ever getting past 6, most likely.
haha, famous last words.
warning: addiction can be addictive.
I think I still have some aesthetic reluctance to turning out a former madonna into a complete (public) slut.
i’ve helpfully shaded the operative word in the sentence above.
I’m not so sure that 10 is pimping the pussy. Similar to some PUA’s reluctance to put a cap on female beauty by awarding a 10 in looks, I’d be reluctant to put a limit on this category of depravity. It’s a 9 in my book.
yeah, well, this is an instance in which the pua’s have got it right, but for the wrong reason.
there are no 10’s. “10” is an unattainable ethereal notion, an eidolon that seduces men into eternal dissatisfaction.
ever walk into a room that smells really good?
does it still smell as good after thirty seconds?
after ten minutes, does it smell any different from any other room that is at least somewhat pleasantly aromatic?
oh, and there are plenty of steps above pimping the pussy. lots and lots and lots of them.
but those are reserved for people who’ve beaten all the lower levels.
like levels 20 and above on old-school tetris.
Now you’re really putting me on the slippery slope.
step one:
realize that it’s a slope.
i.e., not a staircase with discrete elevations.
I don’t know what’s more amazing, that you’ve reconciled this message for the masses with your sliver of collective consciousness, or that I agree with you on its benefit.
heh. bro, this blog is two days old.
welcome to my house.
2010/06/21 at 12:48
You seem in a better place now – I think the discussion at Traditional Marriage helped?
link?
i gotta see this
2010/06/21 at 12:57
This post & comments are typical, if not exhaustive
http://traditionalmarriage.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/train-up-a-wife-in-the-way-she-should-go/
2010/06/21 at 13:00
[…] to occur, but crippling the potential and shortening the life of the bond. why? as stated before, women are elastic bands. effective PUA game works by stretching those bands at an extremely rapid velocity — rapid […]
2010/06/22 at 03:38
what do you think annoyed Roissy most – your refusal to move on from your beta status or your admitted preference for sluts? Or your unhappiness generally?
I’m tempted to argue that all of that combined with my tendency to repeat the same limited concepts over and over again in a highly annoying and irritating fashion may have lead him to de facto banning me. In retrospect, it was probably the best thing ever as it broke the addictive cycle that the blog had over me at that time.
You seem in a better place now
Not really, I’m probably more conflicted thanks to what I read there, and despite some flare ups, I just try to avoid writing angst-ridden comments. After reading both MRA/PUA and traditional marriage stuff, you’re left with a unflattering view of women that leaves one disgusted with women in a bland, abstract concept, and turned off to the idea of being in a relationship. If you can’t be a big soft beta teddy bear in a relationship, then what’s the point, especially if it’s really all about being dominant and managing some “crazy bitch” that isn’t capable of taking care of herself? I don’t see any love or romance in that, but I hold to my crazy ideals.
2010/06/22 at 04:16
da –
maslow wept.
2010/06/22 at 07:00
maslow wept.
Why?
2010/06/22 at 07:19
da, i appreciate your presence here — every strong character needs a foil — but i’m not going to be drawn into this vortex. so i’ll tell you exactly the same thing i tell the twelve- and thirteen-year-olds who enter my boxing gym for the first time.
go stand in the doorway.
one foot in, one foot out.
even god only helps those who help themselves, and i am certainly no god.
if you are willing to be knocked down, defeated, bested, broken, and beaten, and will keep getting up and fighting, then step inside, and welcome.
if you step inside, you’re family. if you find yourself with nowhere to go and nowhere to turn, you have a new home.
if you would rather not be knocked down, defeated, bested, broken, and beaten at all, then step back outside and close the door.
which way are you going to step?
2010/06/22 at 17:22
which way are you going to step?
The former, as the taste of losing is too bitter to accept.
2010/06/23 at 19:46
David, this is great news , welcome.
PS: I hope that you are not mixing up “former” and “latter” here, if you tell me you are I will be tempted to virtually castrate you.
PPS: Not that I would actually have the heart to do such a thing.
2010/06/23 at 20:31
sdaedalus —
i’ve always known that rites of passage are powerful, but even i am still shocked by the sheer power of taking a young man who has been a sneaky-fucker his whole life and simply making him stand in the doorway.
most have stepped inside, though slowly and with trepidation.
of the ones who have stepped outside, many have returned.
and not one, ever, has ever shut the door all the way.
not one.
2010/06/23 at 20:40
That is lovely.
2010/07/02 at 13:11
[…] | Tags: ltr, relationships, sexuality | [3] Comments the following was promised here, and is an outgrowth of some discussion on the sibling of daedalus […]