o lord,
grant me
consistency**
so that i still want
what i want
once i have it
commitment**
so that i want to still want
what i want
once i have it
grant me these, o lord
so that i can build something
i won’t be compelled
to destroy
–
if that is too much, o lord
if it is my fate
to destroy
whatever i build
deliver me, o lord
from the discontent
that drives me to build
what i must inevitably destroy
so that i want
nothing but
to want
to rapture
to see
to chase
to hunt
to capture
to free
to erase
–
my teenage years were, by any red-blooded adolescent standard, blessed — flush with success, whether with girls, money, drugs, fights, or whatever else my little id might have desired.
but, all that success led to the inevitable devaluation of the currency of success.
first, like most people, i found that satisfaction was homeostatic.
no matter what i achieved — and no matter the intense, though brief, heights of euphoria i derived from those achievements — i found that i would soon regress to my historical levels of happiness, contentment, and satisfaction (or, more accurately, lack thereof).
second, though, and more insidiously, the joy of pursuing success began to fade along with the joy of success itself.
life and liberty i still had, but material and social success had begun to come so fast and so easy that not just happiness, but even the pursuit of happiness, had begun to lose its luster.
the thrill of victory had given way to the expectation of victory,
the thrill of the chase had given way to the numbing ennui of a daily commute.
i found myself climbing the steps of a shepard scale, restlessly anticipating the next peak, without stopping to enjoy the climb; inevitably, once i’d reached a higher step, i’d ultimately find it indistinguishable from the previous step.
discontent is a useful mechanism for driving men to achieve their goals.
but what good is discontent when the goals themselves have succumbed to hyperinflation?
–
i wrote the prayer above at the wise old age of 15, after cracking a book on buddhism and attempting to make sense of the concept of nirvana.
in the sources i read, nirvana was portrayed as total freedom from craving, desire, anger, and other such states of discontent — a total freedom that would extinguish the fires of human suffering described vividly in genesis 3.
this notion provided only cold comfort for me, though, for i saw such “freedom”, such detachment, as the death of the soul itself.
the mathematician paul erdös referred to colleagues who had stopped doing pure mathematics, whether by stopping altogether or even by switching to applied math, as “dead”; i felt the same way about my own drives — if i stopped chasing them in their pure form, whether by losing them altogether (nirvana) or by settling into a more practical routine, i’d be “dead”.
the idea of nirvana resonated with some.
to me, nirvana would be death.
hence, the prayer above.
it’s possible that i’m too much of a horizontal integrator to make things last once i’ve built them. whether this is by natural temperament or by the numbing effect of too much success, too fast, too soon, with too little effort, i’ll never know, but i’ve been keenly aware of it since even before the wise old age of fifteen.
my nirvana, then, would be a return to the pure enjoyment of the chase — and of the explosive satisfaction of capturing elusive prey — without the accompanying, specious desire to break and domesticate that prey, only to release it back into the wild once it has come to depend on me for its survival.
–
is there such a thing as too much success, too soon, too fast?
in order to feel successful, and to remain motivated to chase success, do we need a certain lack of success in our lives?
if we graph happiness versus actual degree of success, do we get a laffer curve?
–
**at the time of writing this prayer, i had never heard of the “principle of commitment and consistency” as (later?) popularized by robert cialdini.
2010/07/16 at 11:10
Architecturally, happiness is the tholobate, purpose the dome.
Mathematically, pleasure is a laffer curve, but happiness is ln(purpose).
2010/07/16 at 14:06
I think you were using ambition like some people use drugs, as a way to distract from the fact you weren’t really happy/content in your own skin[insert as appropriate]
Work was so rare, starting out in my profession, that the initial high of new instructions could last for days (sometimes, blissfully, even during actually doing the damn work)
Now that I get new stuff in daily, the buzz is less, it’s more of a burden, getting work in merely stops me from worrying about not getting it in, it no longer gives me a high, this makes doing the work a bit of a pain.
What can I say? I identify with a lot of what you have written here. I think some people go after something for the sake of getting it without thinking whether they actually want it.
2010/07/16 at 14:10
Also, and I just spotted this re-reading my previous post, the higher one ascends, the greater the worry about falling.
2010/07/16 at 14:54
if we graph happiness versus actual degree of success, do we get a laffer curve?
Only in the most general of terms.
You’d need to replace “actual degree of success” with “perception of success”
I know people who are actually quite successful but don’t feel this because they expect to be Bill Gates.
Also, I think the correlation is between increasing success and happiness, with success being like a drug, the increase has to get exponentially greater to give the same high the longer it goes on, at least if it’s in the same area (reason for diversifying?).
Why does the initial sudden increase in success give such a buzz? I think it’s because it gives the sense that life is full of possibilities.
If you were a woman, you’d be slated in Roissyland for this characteristic, but I think the problem is actually that you’re easily bored and dependent on short-term highs to keep going, yes, this sounds very familiar.
2010/07/16 at 14:56
In your case, does the enjoyment of the chase decrease, the more prey you catch?
Do you find that you increasingly have to catch bigger prey to get the same buzz?
2010/07/16 at 15:52
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Also see: Paradox of hedonism.
“Happiness is often imprecisely equated with pleasure. If, for whatever reason, one does equate happiness with pleasure, then the paradox of hedonism arises. When one aims solely towards pleasure itself, one’s aim is frustrated.”
By the way, Buddhism is not just pure nirvana. The four immeasurables involve love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity — wanting others to be happy and free of suffering, rather than pursuing happiness as a goal for one’s own self. Not really a message intended for teenagers, though.
2010/07/17 at 10:41
sd #2
I think some people go after something for the sake of getting it without thinking whether they actually want it.
that hasn’t been my problem at all, actually; my problem is that i genuinely do, all the way down to the bottom of my heart, want what i go after … until i get it.
–
#3
Also, and I just spotted this re-reading my previous post, the higher one ascends, the greater the worry about falling.
perhaps, but perhaps not.
i chose the shepard scale as a representation because it stands for the powerful idea that happiness “regresses to the mean”: no matter what happens in our lives, it’s as if we’re almost hardwired for a certain degree of satisfaction, to which we will inevitably regress (unless we are so downtrodden that we just break, and stay broken).
the flipside, of course, is that this idea of “hardwired satisfaction” is also a blessing in bad times; no matter how bad things are, they too shall pass — in terms of impact, if not in physically realized terms — and we’ll again regress back to the mean.
i’ve observed this phenomenon in friends and family who’ve suffered tragic and unrecoverable losses, whether of body parts, of physical or psychological functionalities, or of loved ones: after going through the stages of grief, provided they make it out alive, they eventually regress back to their mean temperament.
see hyperthymic temperament — i know one or two such blessed souls. not surprisingly, they aren’t much motivated to accomplish a whole lot of concrete things in their lives.
–
i also believe that this “regression to the mean” is the reason why women need their elastic bands stretched to a greater degree than do men: for women, regression to the mean represents a return to ennui, from which they will literally do anything in their power to escape.
ennui is to women what involuntary celibacy is to men. on the other hand, ennui is not such a big deal to most men, especially those who fall heavily on the side of vertical integration.
2010/07/17 at 10:55
Also, I think the correlation is between increasing success and happiness, with success being like a drug, the increase has to get exponentially greater to give the same high the longer it goes on, at least if it’s in the same area (reason for diversifying?).
interesting.
exponentially, or linearly?
do you think the answer differs for different endeavors?
for instance, i can see what you’re saying in terms of money — i don’t think that the same linear increase in annual compensation will continue to carry the same psychological weight for long; i think you’re absolutely right that the increase will have to be exponential (i.e., a constant multiple, rather than a constant increment) to have the same psychological effect.
and probably not even then — there is almost certainly a ceiling above which additional money doesn’t terribly matter much, except in terms of long-term security.
–
Why does the initial sudden increase in success give such a buzz? I think it’s because it gives the sense that life is full of possibilities.
also interesting.
i don’t really get the buzz from a sense of diversity. in fact, quite the opposite.
as you’ve probably figured out by now, i’m a man of many interests, very few of which are more than passing in duration; however, the biggest such buzzes i get are inevitably in situations where i find one thing on which to obsess to an unhealthy extent.
in keeping with the poem above, that “one thing” often turns out to be something in which i soon lose all interest. in fact, excepting the always seductive charms of the opposite sex, almost everything in which i’ve been intensely interested has gone that way at one point or another, though certain old interests are known to pop back up to the surface on occasion.
–
If you were a woman, you’d be slated in Roissyland for this characteristic, but I think the problem is actually that you’re easily bored and dependent on short-term highs to keep going, yes, this sounds very familiar.
i love this aspect of the female temperament. i love it. i thrive on it. this is why i’m so overwhelmingly attracted to the aforementioned high-drama borderline-personality women.
i love the highs, and i even love the lows — there’s a sort of delayed gratification, a bittersweet, almost nostalgic, serene quality to reflecting on catastrophic events. that feeling of being the last man standing, that sense of emotional exhaustion in which you break down into those unique paroxysms of laughing and crying at the same time. you may well know what i’m talking about.
if you can relate, perhaps you should check out some of the literature of el salvador, in which this theme is pervasive. (there is not a lot of salvadoran literature in english translation, but i can point you to a few such translations.)
my conscious justification for why i so appreciate this aspect of the traditionally female temperament is because it fills in an otherwise monochrome life with vivid color.
but, upon reflection, the real justification may just be that i like looking into a mirror.
2010/07/17 at 10:59
sd #5
In your case, does the enjoyment of the chase decrease, the more prey you catch?
perhaps, but it would be more accurate to say that it decreases with the increasing ease of catching prey.
i have an unhealthy obsession with setting bars at or above my known limits — even initially.
heh.
again, makes me feel alive.
Do you find that you increasingly have to catch bigger prey to get the same buzz?
that’s probably a more accurate characterization.
i think i may be about halfway to my personal characterization of nirvana, above, though — at this point, i get a pretty significant buzz just from attempting to catch the most formidable prey, almost irrespective of my eventual success.
there are certain readers who should be able to relate well to what i’m talking about here.
2010/07/17 at 11:04
koanic #1
Mathematically, pleasure is a laffer curve, but happiness is ln(purpose)
interesting.
so, in this model, even the most rudimentary sense of purpose is a powerful source of happiness — but, even if that sense of purpose becomes extremely granular, the additional psychological gains are small?
i can see the accuracy of such a model — especially in the case of such abstract motivations as religious faith, in which a more granular/specific sense of purpose, beyond that of being “godly”, is difficult or arbitrary.
food for thought.
how do you think the curve shifts as we age, though?
as we progress through middle age, i would imagine that the whole curve shifts to the right, moving the vertical asymptote over to the “more specific sense of purpose” region.
i.e., when we’re young striplings, even the vaguest sense of purpose will be good enough to give us the euphoria of being “on a mission”, but as we get older we’ll start to feel discontent if we haven’t figured out the minutiae of why we are here.
yes?
2010/07/17 at 11:09
hope #6 –
that “hedonic treadmill” article is interesting.
it captures the essence of half of what i talked about in comment #7, but not the other half: it conspicuously fails to mention what happens when there is a decrease in hedonia.
does the treadmill fall back down?
or do we fall off the back of it, unless the decrease is so severe, and so abrupt, that we unplug the machine altogether?
–
By the way, Buddhism is not just pure nirvana. The four immeasurables involve love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity — wanting others to be happy and free of suffering, rather than pursuing happiness as a goal for one’s own self. Not really a message intended for teenagers, though.
yeah, i don’t know what the hell i was doing reading that stuff at fifteen, especially given everything else i was doing.
i suppose this would’ve been “unintentional contrast game” in roissyville, notwithstanding the fact that i didn’t let anyone know i was reading that sort of stuff.
can you point me to any good introductory sources on the internet?
2010/07/17 at 12:01
@Narciso 10
Re: age and purpose – I would deal with that problem within the variable (purpose), not by altering the function of happiness. However I have little experience with age.
I.e., as you age, you begin to realize that a vague purpose without specifics is not really a purpose. Alternatively, if you achieve no success in your purpose, after a time you realize you are effectively purposeless.
Identity and purpose are not entirely independent variables. At first I left out identity because I assumed its intersection with purpose would leave the function sufficiently expressed. Now I am not so sure. I would rephrase my happiness function:
H=ln(purpose*identity)
I say this because, having long had a strong purpose, I am nonetheless perhaps twice as happy having established a strong identity.
You know what? Relationships and health are crucial to happiness too. Sigh.
H=ln(purpose*identity*relationships*health)
That’s all I can think of for now. It would be interesting to construct a scale on which these variables actually made sense together. I guess instead of sliders on a -10 to 10 scale, you’d need a .001 to .10 to .20 … to 1.0 scale.
2010/07/17 at 13:12
oops my scale’s broken. was definitely running out of gas. After a nap, here’s how I’d scale it:
scale X H
-10 0.01 -4.6
-9 0.1 -2.3
-8 0.2 -1.6
-7 0.3 -1.2
-6 0.4 -0.9
-5 0.5 -0.7
-4 0.6 -0.5
-3 0.7 -0.4
-2 0.8 -0.2
-1 0.9 -0.1
0 1 0.0
1 1.65 0.5
2 2.3 0.8
3 2.95 1.1
4 3.6 1.3
5 4.25 1.4
6 4.9 1.6
7 5.55 1.7
8 6.2 1.8
9 6.85 1.9
10 7.5 2.0
2010/07/17 at 13:16
aand that’s unreadable. one more try.
scale X H
-10 || 0.01 || -4.6
-9 || 0.10 || -2.3
-8 || 0.20 || -1.6
-7 || 0.30 || -1.2
-6 || 0.40 || -0.9
-5 || 0.50 || -0.7
-4 || 0.60 || -0.5
-3 || 0.70 || -0.4
-2 || 0.80 || -0.2
-1 || 0.90 || -0.1
0 || 1.00 || 0.0
1 || 1.65 || 0.5
2 || 2.30 || 0.8
3 || 2.95 || 1.1
4 || 3.60 || 1.3
5 || 4.25 || 1.4
6 || 4.90 || 1.6
7 || 5.55 || 1.7
8 || 6.20 || 1.8
9 || 6.85 || 1.9
10 || 7.50 || 2.0
2010/07/17 at 13:23
also, Narciso, how did you turn on the comment numbering feature in the wordpress control panel? It’s very handy, a compromise between nesting and chronological order.
2010/07/17 at 15:20
@Narciso at 7
sd #2
I think some people go after something for the sake of getting it without thinking whether they actually want it.
that hasn’t been my problem at all, actually; my problem is that i genuinely do, all the way down to the bottom of my heart, want what i go after … until i get it.
Sorry, my fault for not being clearer. I should have written
“without thinking whether they will actually still want it when they get it”.
I have had things (possibly even people) that I wanted more than anything else in the world but when I got them they were not important any more, I would have gladly have given them away. I think the reason for this was because I wanted them to prove something to myself (although I suffer from ennui to some extent, my primary motivator is a combination of pride & insecurity.
In your case, the primary motivator would appear to be something to distract you, you may just have wanted them so that you would have had a goal to occupy your time.
2010/07/17 at 15:25
i chose the shepard scale as a representation because it stands for the powerful idea that happiness “regresses to the mean”: no matter what happens in our lives, it’s as if we’re almost hardwired for a certain degree of satisfaction, to which we will inevitably regress (unless we are so downtrodden that we just break, and stay broken).
Does this adult degree of satisfaction correspond with the degree of satisfaction felt in childhood? The reason I ask is because childhood was a time of wonder to me, a time of infinite possibilities and new discoveries. I lost that as I grew up. As I spent most of the time since I grew up chasing ambition, it’s very hard to know what my mean degree of adult happiness is.
2010/07/17 at 15:30
@Narciso at 8
exponentially, or linearly?
do you think the answer differs for different endeavors?
Normally, exponentially, and as you point out, subject to a long-stop point (though some billionaires and really successful people have much further long-stop points than others).
Possibly it does differ for different endeavors, but I think the big difference is the time lag between the various steps on the ladder of success, the shorter the time lag, the quicker the buzz runs out.
2010/07/17 at 15:35
I think i may be about halfway to my personal characterization of nirvana, above, though — at this point, i get a pretty significant buzz just from attempting to catch the most formidable prey, almost irrespective of my eventual success.
Yes, I think you may be getting there, you have extracted what part of the process gives you the most pleasure & are focusing on that. The only thing is, is it possible to still feel the pleasure when one knows that achieving the ultimate goal will not bring happiness
The illusion that everything will all right if you achieve your goal is a big motivator for me, however as your motivators are different, it may not matter so much for you.
PS: I like to set the bar to a level I consider too high as well, because I like to prove myself wrong. I hate knowing what is going to happen all the time. Again, this goes back to the sense of infinite possibilities, of there being a world out there that I don’t have a handle on, where I can’t fairly accurately predict what is going to happen next (unfortunately, in the real world, I usually can).
2010/07/17 at 15:40
@Narciso at 8
my conscious justification for why i so appreciate this aspect of the traditionally female temperament is because it fills in an otherwise monochrome life with vivid color.
Yes, I know. I come from a family of closet drama queens.
Unfortunately it can also be very draining for someone who is not emotionally detached. You appear to have sufficient emotional detachment to weather the storm with equanimity, in fact, I would say that the drama appeals to you precisely because you are so emotionally detached – I wonder if it is the closest you come to feeling alive?
I, on the other hand, get caught up in the whole thing and come out like a wet rag at the end of it.
I wouldn’t have said it was like looking into a mirror at all for you, not a standard mirror, anyway.
2010/07/17 at 17:38
@Narciso #11 “can you point me to any good introductory sources on the internet?”
I am not a Buddhist and do not really have much of a background in it, so I am not a good person to ask for that.
My own interest in spirituality is more of a synthesizing overview. I like to study the commonalities between all of the most popular world religions and distilling them down to the parts that most strike a chord with me.
“as we get older we’ll start to feel discontent if we haven’t figured out the minutiae of why we are here.”
This is why people start to turn to religion as they get older, because it gives a greater sense of purpose and meaning, especially in the face of rapidly approaching death.
I still got a fierce atheistic streak in me. But if I’m going to be happy (which I want to be), then I have to find something other than bio and evo psych to keep the hamster wheels in my head from just giving up.
2010/07/18 at 05:09
[...] narciso babaero: the shepard’s prayer [...]
2010/07/18 at 12:10
koanic
also, Narciso, how did you turn on the comment numbering feature in the wordpress control panel? It’s very handy, a compromise between nesting and chronological order.
i actually have no idea; this theme (“connections”) carries comment numbers by default.
i am the wrong man to ask about all things technical.
2010/07/18 at 12:17
I have had things (possibly even people) that I wanted more than anything else in the world but when I got them they were not important any more, I would have gladly have given them away. I think the reason for this was because I wanted them to prove something to myself (although I suffer from ennui to some extent, my primary motivator is a combination of pride & insecurity.
don’t take this the wrong way, but the “insecurity” thing may go a longer way here than you give it credit for.
i’ve met women whose feelings of insecurity ran so deep that they would poison the well in their relationships, for the simple reason that they didn’t feel as though they “deserved” a desirable man — and reasoned, therefore, that any man who would settle for them automatically earned a demotion to “undesirable” in their eyes.
astonishingly, a couple of these women were actually able to articulate these feelings explicitly.
if there’s one type of woman with whom i would have NO idea whatsoever how to construct a viable relationship, that would be this type.
i mean, i understand the extreme importance, to men, of framing a relationship in a certain way, and of reinforcing that frame constantly through actions and symbolism — without which many relationships will fail — but i don’t (yet) understand how, or even whether it’s possible, to construct a viable relationship with a woman who (a) is hypergamous by nature AND (b) automatically and unconsciously assumes hypogamy with any man who will actually give her the time of day.
that? that’s a tough one.
2010/07/18 at 12:22
sd #17
The reason I ask is because childhood was a time of wonder to me, a time of infinite possibilities and new discoveries. I lost that as I grew up.
have you truly lost it, or do you just not have the time or opportunity for it anymore?
thought experiment:
name, if you can, some things that would bring back that childhood sense of wonder, even for a brief moment.
then, see whether there’s any connection — however tenuous — between those things and whatever used to stoke that feeling when you were actually a child.
my money is on a connection. there’s certainly a huge connection for me; i’m pretty somber and impassive on the exterior, but i can also draw positive energy and happiness from a great many very unlikely sources.
on the other hand, this exercise also runs the risk of bringing back whatever unpleasant emotions may also be associated with your childhood experience. therefore, it all comes down to what kind of person you are when it comes to remembrances and nostalgia.
if you’re the type of person for whom sepia tones bring positive memories — even in the case of events that were traumatic at the time — then, by all means, proceed. on the other hand, if you’re the type for whom old wounds bleed just as freshly as do new ones, then you may be better advised to stay away.
2010/07/18 at 12:27
sd 19
The only thing is, is it possible to still feel the pleasure when one knows that achieving the ultimate goal will not bring happiness
well, sure. although i think your words (and perhaps mine, above) are betraying the wrong frame here.
in particular, i think it’s definitely possible — once we learn to stop thinking of these ostensible “goals” as actual goals. since language obviously shapes the ways in which we think about things, i think an important step of this process is to stop referring to these endpoints — which would be goals, in most people’s mode of thinking — as “goals”.
the proximate end here, for people like me, is to create a mindset in which the journey, not the destination, is the point of the endeavor.
the ultimate end is to create a mindset in which there is no longer a destination at all, only a journey, and in which anything that seems like a destination is just the first step of another journey.
for all the bad things that people like to say about america, i do think that this is one aspect of the american state of mind that is very appealing: the ceaseless drive to improve, to tweak, to better things.
that state of mind leads to a great deal of discontent in the minds of many people — for instance, it’s almost certainly one of the greatest motivators behind divorce, particularly for women, in this country — but it also does a lot to animate the lives of people like me.
2010/07/18 at 12:39
more sd 19
The illusion that everything will all right if you achieve your goal is a big motivator for me, however as your motivators are different, it may not matter so much for you.
i think the way in which you anticipate and frame the situation(s) in which you fail to achieve your goals is a thousand times as important as the way in which you frame the successful attainment of those goals.
for people like you and me — who tend to set the bar far too high, by any conservative or even semiconservative standard — this sort of anticipation is even more important. maybe ten thousand times, rather than merely a thousand.
PS: I like to set the bar to a level I consider too high as well, because I like to prove myself wrong. I hate knowing what is going to happen all the time. Again, this goes back to the sense of infinite possibilities, of there being a world out there that I don’t have a handle on, where I can’t fairly accurately predict what is going to happen next (unfortunately, in the real world, I usually can)
i think there’s an interesting tension here.
specifically, i think you’re discounting the importance to you of accurate prediction.
as you’ve stated before, you’re a woman of “relentless logic” and rationality; if you really and truly valued not knowing what was going to happen next, you would do much more than you do to turn off that particular tap. for instance, many expectant couples genuinely don’t want to know whether their child will be a boy or a girl before the birth; those couples do everything in their power to avoid finding out whether they’re going to have a boy or a girl.
i’m not, of course, saying that you have to live every minute of your life in purposeful avoidance of factual discovery and pattern recognition in order to be consistent with what you’re saying here. however, i am saying that your intense interest in certain matters, and the extremely deliberate effort with which you cut to the heart of the matter and draw out the patterns, betray that you are more invested in “knowing what is going to happen all the time” than you might think.
what i think you mean here, though, is that you enjoy surprises — exceptions to the patterns you’ve deduced — that are both positive AND entirely unanticipated.
i share this outlook, to an almost pathological extent. for any statement that “not all _______ are like that”, i LOVE meeting/seeing the ______ that are not like that. while these encounters don’t make me blind to the validity of whatever generalities might be stated, they add more color to my life than does just about anything else.
i suspect you feel the same way.
2010/07/18 at 12:41
sd 20
I, on the other hand, get caught up in the whole thing and come out like a wet rag at the end of it.
i’m telling you, you should bottle that shit and use it to write some books.
in particular, you would probably do quite well, if you could stand the lack of depth, by writing chick lit or romance type stuff, but with elements of “game” woven into the mix to a much greater extent than is normal (and, correspondingly, with male characters that aren’t princes, barons, magnates, and so on).
2010/07/18 at 12:47
hope #21
My own interest in spirituality is more of a synthesizing overview. I like to study the commonalities between all of the most popular world religions and distilling them down to the parts that most strike a chord with me.
i see.
i’m more interested in distilling them down to the parts that are most effective in marketing to large, diverse crowds. after all, it can be argued that religious leaders are, in a certain sense, the most effective businesspeople in the history of the world.
2010/07/18 at 12:53
koanic
I say this because, having long had a strong purpose, I am nonetheless perhaps twice as happy having established a strong identity.
what is your “strong purpose”?
–
You know what? Relationships and health are crucial to happiness too. Sigh.
H=ln(purpose*identity*relationships*health)
i don’t have a background beyond the high school level in any of this stuff, but that seems unnecessarily complicated to me. can’t you just break that into ln(p) + ln(i) + ln(r) + ln(h), upon which you can just redefine the scales, so that you get (p + i + r + h)?
not to mention that you need a model that actually makes sense to people…
in any case, it’s interesting that this discussion has gone so far down the quantitative path, because i only meant the quantitative figures as a way to nail down the otherwise elusive concept of “congruence”. i certainly didn’t mean to propose anything this complicated, nor do i trust that i have sufficient quantitative ability to stay on board with it if it goes any further down that path.
2010/07/18 at 16:32
“AND (b) automatically and unconsciously assumes hypogamy with any man who will actually give her the time of day.”
Perhaps your experience extends to more extreme cases of this than mine.
Wouldn’t alpha trait dismissiveness, amped high enough, prevent her from getting the impression you were giving her the time of day? Even if you still give her the inches of lay.
“the ultimate end is to create a mindset in which there is no longer a destination at all, only a journey,”
This journey crap never appealed to me, and never will. I hate travel. Probably because I used to always get sick while traveling. Sounds like a lot of pointless, tiring, draining distraction.
Here’s my version: The ultimate end is to create a mindset in which there is no longer a destination at all, only an identity.
Now that, I can do sitting still. Preferably in front of a computer screen. I do like my digital intelligence amplification.
“that seems unnecessarily complicated to me.”
How would you do it? I think a total of 11 rather than 21 points would suffice for each variable. Beyond that I don’t see how to simplify. The qualitative descriptions strike me as linear, but their happiness function output is not. Unhappiness strikes me as best fitting the -y portion of ln(x). Happiness I think has diminishing returns for each variable but additive returns across variables. Selecting steps of .1 for the negative y and .65 for positive y is arbitrary but yields nice round values for H, and makes clear that extreme unhappiness on one variable is worth double extreme happiness on another.
What I’ll probably end up doing is incorporating these metrics into a spreadsheet and tracking them weekly or monthly. That’ll take the difficulty out of any calculations, and give the numbers meaningfulness via temporal context. Then I can tweak the values or descriptions appropriately.
Believe it or not, I’ve made full spreadsheet attempts to track this sort of thing before. I got very metric-ey while trying to diagnose the source of my (biological) malaise. The model described above is much more accurate than previous attempts at measuring happiness – something I wasn’t in a position to do anyway. Consistently measured life metrics across time did eventually demonstrate to me that type of food eaten was driving all other variables, and kept me honest as I eventually reached the radical conclusion that I must eliminate fruit, grain, starches, sugar, nuts, and probably vegetables. I just recently confirmed the tragic news that potato wedges are forever verboten. So I’m a believer in metrics.
2010/07/18 at 16:34
“what is your “strong purpose”?”
“…hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done…”
2010/07/18 at 19:35
don’t take this the wrong way, but the “insecurity” thing may go a longer way here than you give it credit for.
i’ve met women whose feelings of insecurity ran so deep that they would poison the well in their relationships, for the simple reason that they didn’t feel as though they “deserved” a desirable man — and reasoned, therefore, that any man who would settle for them automatically earned a demotion to “undesirable” in their eyes.
astonishingly, a couple of these women were actually able to articulate these feelings explicitly.
Yes, I’ve met, and read about women (and indeed men, I might add) like that too. In fact, I’ve met more men than women, funnily enough, who fall into this category. It’s very difficult for a man to maintain a relationship with a woman if he doesn’t even like himself. I think I made this point to Tim on my blog in response to one of his comments.
I have considered, on a number of occasions, the possibility that I’m like this myself, but I don’t actually think so. I do indeed have a tendency to react to criticism submissively, by blaming myself (I think someone described me, off-blog as being “hypnotised” by criticism, this is probably true). Yes, I do know where this comes from – I had loving, but exceptionally critical, parents who were completely united on points of criticism (it is bad enough to be up against one critical person, but two critical persons, reinforcing one another, are very difficult to withstand).
However I also respond well to praise, it is a much better motivator for me than criticism, although criticism will get me working, praise will enable me to work more, and better. If I were so insecure, that I did not rate anyone who praised me, the reverse would be the case. My greatest loyalty would always be to people who valued me, because deep down I genuinely do value myself, my reaction to criticism is not really prompted by lack of faith in my own value, it is more lack of faith in other people’s ability to perceive that value.
2010/07/18 at 19:49
i don’t (yet) understand how, or even whether it’s possible, to construct a viable relationship with a woman who (a) is hypergamous by nature AND (b) automatically and unconsciously assumes hypogamy with any man who will actually give her the time of day
You can’t, without changing either (a) or (b).
Since we all know that women are born and will die hypergamous, the only thing you could possibly change would be (b).
My view is that most of these women are not naturally like this, but are like this because of experience. You’d have to make her feel that she had self-worth again.
I would suggest that this would have to be done before the relationship commences, since if you immediately commence a relationship, you will automatically be relegated to hypogamy, it will be much harder to change her from this starting-point.
You would probably need to be off limits in some way, so that she does not think you are interested in her (“giving her the time of day” really means expressing sexual interest, I suspect).
If you apply this to men who are dissatisfied with themselves (an analogous category mentioned in my previous comment), it’s very hard for a woman already in a relationship to change them, they will rate her lower because she is in the relationship with them (I really think this was part of the problem of another party I was in a relationship with). The only person who can do this is a new woman.
Although I think men having affairs exerts a much heavier toll on the women they are involved with than you realise, I think there is at least one case in which a man having an affair can actually benefit his wife, and that is where the new woman manages to build his confidence, so that he can value himself, and value the women he is involved with (including his wife) again.
Quite frankly, if I could have found some other woman to perform this role, and been fairly sure that they would do it properly, I would have done so.
2010/07/18 at 19:54
the proximate end here, for people like me, is to create a mindset in which the journey, not the destination, is the point of the endeavor.
the ultimate end is to create a mindset in which there is no longer a destination at all, only a journey, and in which anything that seems like a destination is just the first step of another journey.
Yes. This makes perfect sense. I don’t know if it works for me, though I have been wondering whether I have been using insecurity as a way to avoid being bored.
I notice that when I am feeling good about myself – which happens more often than my blog comments would indicate, I have a tendency to blog & comment when depressed – I also start to get bored.
The above seems a pretty sensible approach, I would have to say.
2010/07/18 at 19:56
@Narciso 27
i think the way in which you anticipate and frame the situation(s) in which you fail to achieve your goals is a thousand times as important as the way in which you frame the successful attainment of those goals.
Could you enlarge on this, please? I think I know what you are saying, but I am not quite sure.
2010/07/18 at 20:03
I share this outlook, to an almost pathological extent. for any statement that “not all _______ are like that”, i LOVE meeting/seeing the ______ that are not like that. while these encounters don’t make me blind to the validity of whatever generalities might be stated, they add more color to my life than does just about anything else.
i suspect you feel the same way.
That’s it in a nutshell. It’s the sense of discovering something new – this goes back to what I miss about childhood, the sense of learning something new.
In actual fact there are a lot of abstract things out there I know little about, but I have always been more interested in the life of the emotions & people than abstract things – even history and English lit. (two of my passions) interest me primarily as source material on humanity.
2010/07/18 at 22:28
The point of fact is that life is a transitional, not a static state. It’s like a waveform.
We should be striving because when we stop, then our living essence ceases.
So the journey really is the point, in a real sense.
2010/07/18 at 22:33
Haven’t you ever heard of a standing wave?
2010/07/19 at 00:31
@Gorby
This is the ultimate statement of the rootless man.
When I am still, I still am.
2010/07/19 at 00:34
Life is the excited state between not-being and not-being, like the sparks flowing between two poles.
We are a process: Not a certainty or a fact.
2010/07/19 at 00:55
No, life is being. Death is not being.
I think, therefore I am, is a certainty.
I am that I am, is the certainty.
The only reason I can see for anyone, nihilist or not, to deny the certainty of the first two, is out of some psychological need to deny moral agency, and avoid looking the abyss in its face.
2010/07/19 at 00:57
Oh, I thought you wrote being and not-being.
Which would’ve been some serious cant.
Nevermind. Partly.
2010/07/19 at 01:10
Life is not like sparks between two poles. Life flows only one way, and then you die.
Buddhists are people who believe in nothing, but haven’t spent enough time staring into the abyss.
Quantum metaphors and indeterminacy won’t save your flesh from boiling in its casket. Schroedinger’s cat is dead.
2010/07/19 at 21:53
koanic -
Believe it or not, I’ve made full spreadsheet attempts to track this sort of thing before. I got very metric-ey while trying to diagnose the source of my (biological) malaise. The model described above is much more accurate than previous attempts at measuring happiness – something I wasn’t in a position to do anyway. Consistently measured life metrics across time did eventually demonstrate to me that type of food eaten was driving all other variables, and kept me honest as I eventually reached the radical conclusion that I must eliminate fruit, grain, starches, sugar, nuts, and probably vegetables. I just recently confirmed the tragic news that potato wedges are forever verboten. So I’m a believer in metrics.
this sounds like something from which you could actually make a not insignificant amount of money, provided you’re able to boil it down to a level simple enough for the unwashed masses.
just remember, diet advice can’t really be marketed to the general public (as opposed to a very select cadre of extremely smart and dedicated people, whose diets are for the most part already pretty good) unless you propose some kind of relatively simple magic-bullet approach.
2010/07/19 at 22:06
sd #33
Yes, I’ve met, and read about women (and indeed men, I might add) like that too. In fact, I’ve met more men than women, funnily enough, who fall into this category. It’s very difficult for a man to maintain a relationship with a woman if he doesn’t even like himself. I think I made this point to Tim on my blog in response to one of his comments.
well, i don’t think it’s surprising that i’ve met more women than men like this, while the obverse is true for you. after all, i’m a man, and you’re a woman. (yes, i know that’s an oversimplification, but let’s just say that my sample size of digging deep into the psyches of men is pretty small.)
what is exceptionally interesting to me, here, is that quite a few women i’ve met who have had this perspective (the perspective of thinking any man they can get is, ergo, a man they “don’t deserve”) have dated/had sex almost exclusively interracially, with black men. i’ve heard “i don’t deserve a white man” fall more times than once from the lips of such women, usually (but not always) after they were disarmed by conversation, liquor, or both.
this is a psychological quirk that i certainly haven’t spent a whole ton of time looking into, but it’s definitely there. also interestingly, it never seems to extend past any non-black race; i’ve never heard a woman say that she goes with, say, hispanic men because “white men are too good for her”. for obvious reasons, that’s something i would’ve heard by now, even if it were uttered passive-aggressively or under chemical influence, if it were out there.
I have considered, on a number of occasions, the possibility that I’m like this myself, but I don’t actually think so. I do indeed have a tendency to react to criticism submissively, by blaming myself (I think someone described me, off-blog as being “hypnotised” by criticism, this is probably true). Yes, I do know where this comes from – I had loving, but exceptionally critical, parents who were completely united on points of criticism (it is bad enough to be up against one critical person, but two critical persons, reinforcing one another, are very difficult to withstand).
oh darling.
you would absolutely be putty in the hands of a stern master, who after your daily lessons would take you into his arms until the uncontrollable shaking of your body slowly ceased.
…but i digress.
i’ve always been pretty self-directed; my parents were involved in the care of a great many more children than just their own, so, as long as i actually came home in my own street clothes without police escort, they pretty much left me to my own devices. as a result, i’ve evolved a supreme indifference to both criticism and praise, neither of which tends to hold any connotation for me at all beyond the objective.
i like criticism when it contains at least some points of possible improvement; those objective handholds are all that makes any impact on me.
However I also respond well to praise, it is a much better motivator for me than criticism, although criticism will get me working, praise will enable me to work more, and better. If I were so insecure, that I did not rate anyone who praised me, the reverse would be the case.
i kinda figured this is why you chose a dog for your avatar. ever had a man who used these principles to train you to become his good girl?
–
#34
very perceptive.
2010/07/19 at 22:13
@nNarciso 45
“this sounds like something from which you could actually make a not insignificant amount of money,”
I quit my wage-slave job to do just that. But there is much, much more to the system. Recall that I was extremely ambitious yet lacking in energy and mental acuity and frequently interrupted by pain. In response, I built a comprehensive digital prosthesis. It can be scaled down to very simple levels of course, since I frequently couldn’t even muster the focus to enter 10 mouse clicks worth of data, but it also scales up, up, up.
2010/07/19 at 22:14
#36
Could you enlarge on this, please? I think I know what you are saying, but I am not quite sure.
well, you had just mentioned the way you feel about actually meeting your goals.
what i’m saying is that the true measure of any individual is much more closely tied with the way in which s/he apprehends the failure to meet goals. after all, any non-immediate success is just the top step on a ladder of previous failures; therefore, one’s character — and the way in which one will conduct life itself, including everything from risk aversion to relationship behavior to career choice to social circle — is more a function of climbing all those steps of failure than of surveying the landscape from the top step of eventual success.
i don’t think we’re really disagreeing on anything here, perhaps apart from your much more goal-oriented view of things.
2010/07/19 at 22:33
oh darling.
you would absolutely be putty in the hands of a stern master, who after your daily lessons would take you into his arms until the uncontrollable shaking of your body slowly ceased.
You really are a charmer, I can’t help smiling. I’m going to add at the end of your sentence though
“until he becomes bored with knowing, down to the last nuance of reprimand, what exactly will press your buttons, and moves on to a new challenge, leaving you with the knowledge, that nowhere, ever, will you recapture that satisfaction again.”
ever had a man who used these principles to train you to become his good girl?
I’ve always resisted such training, for reasons which follow from the above. A completely trained good girl becomes boring to such a man.
2010/07/19 at 22:37
quite a few women i’ve met who have had this perspective (the perspective of thinking any man they can get is, ergo, a man they “don’t deserve”) have dated/had sex almost exclusively interracially, with black men. i’ve heard “i don’t deserve a white man” fall more times than once from the lips of such women, usually (but not always) after they were disarmed by conversation, liquor, or both.
this is a psychological quirk that i certainly haven’t spent a whole ton of time looking into, but it’s definitely there.
Quite possibly. There simply wouldn’t be enough black men in Ireland for me to know.
There are a lot of men in Ireland who go for women who treat them horribly though, in terms of bossing them round, and who remain completely in thrall to those women, in fact choose them over much nicer girls. Usually these are guys who have suffered bad treatment at the hands of their mothers. I can’t help feeling the two are related.
It’s also, of course, possible, that some of these women are just using this as an excuse & really prefer black men for other reasons. I go for black men, because I feel so bad about myself, is, in a passive-aggressive way, kind of an abdication of responsibility. Have you considered this?
2010/07/19 at 22:38
Resistance is part of the dynamic under the trainer’s control – the illusion that it is otherwise is maintained by common agreement.
2010/07/19 at 22:39
@Narciso #48
what i’m saying is that the true measure of any individual is much more closely tied with the way in which s/he apprehends the failure to meet goals. after all, any non-immediate success is just the top step on a ladder of previous failures; therefore, one’s character — and the way in which one will conduct life itself, including everything from risk aversion to relationship behavior to career choice to social circle — is more a function of climbing all those steps of failure than of surveying the landscape from the top step of eventual success.
This is very good advice. Thanks a lot.
2010/07/21 at 01:18
You really are a charmer, I can’t help smiling. I’m going to add at the end of your sentence though
“until he becomes bored with knowing, down to the last nuance of reprimand, what exactly will press your buttons, and moves on to a new challenge, leaving you with the knowledge, that nowhere, ever, will you recapture that satisfaction again.”
that’s where the woman’s part comes in. we can’t do everything, you know.
you could well be right if the connection is based on nothing beyond physical attraction, physical-sexual dominance, and good sex.
however, once you’ve gotten to this point, a woman who can forge the right mental connections, and who proves her worth in ways beyond the physical, can make herself His Woman.
2010/07/21 at 01:20
It’s also, of course, possible, that some of these women are just using this as an excuse & really prefer black men for other reasons. I go for black men, because I feel so bad about myself, is, in a passive-aggressive way, kind of an abdication of responsibility. Have you considered this?
i’ve definitely considered that; no doubt, that is what’s really going on in the minds of many women who think in terms of similarly sloppy justifications (or, more aptly, dissimulations) for most of their other behavior.
however, i’ve also heard the above from several women with an exceptional combination of self-awareness, introspection, and candor, most of whom had also aged past their peak hormonal rushes.
2010/07/21 at 08:38
Narciso at 53
however, once you’ve gotten to this point, a woman who can forge the right mental connections, and who proves her worth in ways beyond the physical, can make herself His Woman.
I presume guidelines on this will be the subject of later posts?
2010/07/21 at 12:59
i’ve definitely considered that; no doubt, that is what’s really going on in the minds of many women who think in terms of similarly sloppy justifications (or, more aptly, dissimulations) for most of their other behavior.
however, i’ve also heard the above from several women with an exceptional combination of self-awareness, introspection, and candor, most of whom had also aged past their peak hormonal rushes.
My instinct as a woman when I hear a woman say something like this is that, although she may indeed be telling the truth about punishing herself, she may well not yet have given up hope of finding someone (romantic or otherwise) to make her feel better about herself & break the cycle – her behavior and in particular the open discussion of it is almost a cry for help or reassurance that she is worthy. If she were secretive about the behavior, or less open about her motives, then things would be different.
I have done cries for help myself on occasion, not quite to the extreme of getting involved with someone to punish myself though. The difficulty is they don’t usually work, no one ever comes to the rescue (I’m sure there is a psychological reason for this).
After a while, either the woman in question gets sense (which usually happens to me, when the initial emotions calm down) and cures herself or the punishing behavior stops being a cry for help and starts becoming a way of life.
This might explain the suprising level of candidness on the part of these women – if behavior is a cry for help, subconsciously, this only works if the reasons for the behavior are articulated as openly and as freely as possible, they continue to be discussed even after the behavior has become a way of life & they’ve stopped wanting anyone to come along to help them change it.
2010/07/24 at 21:36
Narciso, your 3/5 thesis most directly compares to Roissy’s post entitled, ”
The Ideal Lover Can Never Be The Great Boyfriend” from Dec 2009.
“50/50 internal power sharing between lover and supporter, manifestly expressed in perfect synchronicity with a woman’s unspoken needs for the one or the other masculine archetype, is the myth of “the One” perpetuated by the feminist grievance industry to keep women unsatisfied and constantly searching. ”
“Like I said, most men lean one way or the other, a few embrace an extreme, and only Master Casanovas balance their dual essence so evenly that their women are always breathlessly infatuated with them.
The men who have complete command over their women are the men who intuitively know when to disarm with the tender ministrations of the great boyfriend or the lustful recklessness of the ideal lover. When you are aware of this ever present immutable female desire for dualing male archetypes, you will find it that much easier to direct a woman’s emotions, like Mozart conducting a symphony. A woman’s loyalty is as much a function of your ability to seduce it out of her as it is of her character.”
2010/07/24 at 22:15
only Master Casanovas balance their dual essence so evenly that their women are always breathlessly infatuated with them.
This actually seems an awful lot of work for the poor Master Casanovas. When do they get time out? No wonder alpha males (hi Narciso!) have to disappear unexpectedly and without warning for unpredictable periods of time.
Seriously, all this business of tender ministrations & lustful recklessness sounds very alluring indeed, but don’t put so much pressure on yourselves. A couple of slip ups now and again shouldn’t matter too much in the overall scheme of things.
Also, don’t forget that a woman has her own dynamic in dealing with men, part of the fun & unpredictability is watching how the two interact & improvising to meet the other dynamic. Stasis would get boring.
2010/07/25 at 00:03
It’s not work. Once internalized, it flows naturally. Work, effort and annoyance come rather from dealing with the shitstorms of an improperly managed woman. Managing her properly permits minimal investment.
2010/07/25 at 00:06
To the extent it is stasis, it is not boring, and to the extent stasis is boring, it is not stasis.
You cavil so prettily.
2010/07/25 at 00:56
To the extent it is stasis, it is not boring, and to the extent stasis is boring, it is not stasis.
I think it depends on what definition of stasis you adopt. You seem to be following Thucydides’ definition. I was using it to refer to a state of stability, like your internalised state above (I take your point on this, subject to the boredom issue below).
You cavil so prettily.
Annoyingly, is probably what you really want to say. However Narciso did give me permission to test his theories for holes. The theories are proving suprisingly resilient, however I do think the boredom factor is relevant. Narciso himself has indicated on this very post that he’s inclined to get bored after he builds something up, and starts to pull it down again.
2010/07/25 at 03:46
“Annoyingly, is probably what you really want to say.”
Women speak through the derivative of the curve, men the slope. Mistranslations ensue.
“I think it depends on what definition of stasis you adopt.”
On the contrary, it depends on to which aspects of the dynamic the term stasis applies.
In unrelated news, I’ve progressed through 20% of the backlog for my text-processing augmenter this morning. 148,000 more words until intelligence amplification. The addition of separate applications and procedures covering e.g. project management and CRM and journaling affordances has greatly reduced the burden on the main knowledge/GTD tree, compared to previous versions.
It’s a natural feature of language, after writing a thesis, to see the slippage between words and ding an sich. The solution is to distinguish between opinion and objective, and ruthlessly assume context.
2010/07/25 at 20:22
I recall something SD said about being a challenge, not being boring. It seems all women have this idea, it’s sort of a qualification or justification, that they’re not going to just lay down. Somewhere between an anti-slut defense and a no scrubs hurdle.
Women also claim to be interested in knowing how to make a man happy, and they somehow assume that “being a challenge” keep him from being bored, and therefore happy.
Not that women take advice in this area, but if they did: I think the best way for them to understand the default male expectations and mindset, would be to read Cesar Millan’s “Cesar’s Way.” But read it not from the perspective of the man, but the dog. I.e., learn how to exist in the calm-submissive role in a pack.
Women don’t get hierarchical packs. Their energy is calibrated to the the herd, in which everyone fluctuates within a narrow band of status. The tears, the petty infighting, the frenemies. This is all anathema to pack-mentality men.
Alternating spunkiness and submissiveness is charming herd behavior, but in a pack there is only one leader, all the time, to whom all the others unquestioningly submit. A healthy long term relationship must either have a man strong enough to maintain this role, or a woman smart enough to maintain hers.
2010/07/25 at 20:30
You’re probably right about this, you know. Women are easily bored and tend to assume all men are easily bored too, when in fact what men want is a quiet life. I have been told this, in fact, by quite a few men independently. Of course, whether or not they are telling the truth, is another question. I’ve spent some of my life in quiet mode, and some in less quiet mode. I haven’t noticed men gravitating towards me more when I’m in quiet mode, quite (sorry) the contrary in fact.
Narciso, on the other hand, appears to thrive on an unquiet life and has admitted to being just as easily bored as most women, so maybe if I just limit my remarks about boredom to him?
Leaving our blog host aside, do you yourself think that most men just want a quiet life?
Talking of Cesar Milan, this idea of dog training the opposite sex has been round for a long time – have you read any Esther Vilars lately? I’ve always felt it was too cruel, to try to change someone I was attracted to in their natural state, you’ll see this discussed in the first post on my blog.
I can see the benefits of being unquestioningly submissive but I think that there would have to be something worth submitting to in order to maintain a frame in this regard. No dog ever decides to be submissive on their own after all.
2010/07/25 at 22:02
I don’t think you understand what I’m talking about. Probably because you haven’t read the book. Calm-submissive energy is a wonderful energy, it doesn’t equal quiet, or non-initiating, or dull. A calm-submissive dog can be warm, playful, a wonderful companion. By contrast, a situation where dominance is ambiguous can lead to neuroses and aggression. What makes a dog calm submissive is that 1. it isn’t hyperactive and 2. it’s not challenging for dominance. I doubt many men want a hyperactive, dominant wife.
As far as I can make out, Narciso likes women that normal men would find impossible to reduce to calm submissiveness. Women with naturally high baseline energy and dominance potential. But his goal is still submission, if not calm, and I suspect he dislikes hyperactivity.
Cesar doesn’t train dogs. I don’t train women. I rehabilitated myself to project the right energy, that’s all. I suggest the same for a woman who wishes to capture a higher caliber of man, or keep the attention of one as she ages.
I would argue a woman should apply the same bar for sexual congress and willingness to submit unquestioningly. Especially if he’s going to choke-fuck her.
2010/07/25 at 22:19
I will indeed read the book.
I sincerely hope most men don’t want a dominant, wife but I do notice that’s what a lot of them seem to end up with.
I’m not actually sure what you mean by hyperactive, I’d be very grateful if you could explain.
I’m glad warmth & playfulness isn’t excluded by the dog training process. I had a vision of Stepford dogs, perfectly behaved but void of any personality whatsoever.
Re your last sentence, I have a very small and delicate neck so perhaps I would not be a good investment from point of view of the training process – I might not last long enough to repay all that hard work.
2010/07/25 at 22:58
I have extensive experience working with delicacy.
Glad you’re going to read it, it’s profound. You would never have caught me using the word “energy” openly before reading this book. It’s the universal mammalian language. He later wrote a dumbed down version because his first work was too philosophical, the masses couldn’t parse it.
There is no training process, at least with me. Narciso probably has his paces.
Just discovered another 26,000 lines of text to process… back to 40% complete. My life is flashing before my eyes.
Oh yeah, hyperactive: think of a dog running around in circles. Watch some Dog Whisperer. Few books are as thoroughly illustrated in video as this one.
2010/07/25 at 23:18
I’m watching it now. Mr Milan sounds really interesting, if I was going to make up a character to spearhead a book like this for marketing purposes, I don’t think I could have made a better choice.
2010/07/25 at 23:18
PS: thank you for explaining hyperactive.
2010/08/04 at 22:13
Just because you have 69 comments is no reason to get complacent, this blog is in no way complete, you have a lot of work to do on it yet before you get fed up with it.
I am really looking forward, for instance, to your promised post on how to allure men.
2010/08/04 at 22:14
Obviously when writing about how to allure men, you’d be speaking from observation & not experience here.
2010/08/05 at 04:46
71 comments, 27 of which were posted by someone with a cocker spaniel avatar. I could easily see getting complacent with that.
2010/08/05 at 07:20
While we’re trading insults, your own gravatar reminds me of a (special little?) snowflake. Quite appropriate for a man who would choose to commment under the name John Galt.
2010/08/05 at 07:30
Also, it’s a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
I am touched that you took the trouble to count the number of my comments over several different posts.
2010/08/05 at 14:53
Koanic says…”in a pack there is only one leader, all the time, to whom all the others unquestioningly submit”…yet at the same time, the same man may be a member of multiple packs, with very different levels in each. For example, he may have one dominance level at work and another level on the company ball team, even when pretty much the same people are involved. And if he’s a member of a military reserve unit, his level there is likely to be different yet again. I think that an individual’s ability to accept these context-dependent levels with good grace has been important in American society, perhaps somewhat less so in some other places.
2010/08/05 at 18:04
Sdae, how to attract men aside from being physically alluring is to 1) know yourself and 2) do what men want. The best thing to do is figure out what type of man you are personally most attracted to AND most likely to keep. Then play to that type of man’s wants and desires. Be the “ideal” woman for that type of man, because every man who is capable of love has such an ideal.
In my case I want a dominant, intelligent but emotionally sensitive man, who does not want overtly sexualized women. And I got him by being a bit submissive, a bit prudish but still sensual, showing him my smarts, and being emotionally balanced (also being open to his spirituality). There was also a heavy dose of letting him “be himself,” and loving him “for himself,” which I suspect is important to most men.
This I believe men want more than almost anything: admiration in abundance. I know that I would be more jealous of a plainer looking woman who is nice, sweet, has a big heart, compliments my man all the time and sends him tons of flattery, rather than a beautiful woman who was cold, aloof and mean-spirited, often being disparaging and dismissive of men. I would be very threatened if I had stopped complimenting him a lot and knew he was missing ego boost from me.
You see, men see compliments and flattery from a woman as a highly important gesture. It is good to have other men recognize his accomplishments, but men usually look twice when they see women openly singing the praises of any particular men — they get envious and want some of that. Men also tend to think women admire the wrong sorts of things (celebrity men, dumb jocks or any number of “cool” men that other men deem “douchebags”). Don’t openly admire such men.
When a woman openly compliments a man, she in essence issues a challenge to other men around. It is why John Galt pointed to your flattery toward narciso in his comments to you. It is why on Roissy’s blog other men have contempt for women who compliment certain posters or Roissy himself. It is why the female fans of rock bands and movie stars are looked upon with disdain.
A woman is allowed a limited amount of “schoolgirl gushing.” People just don’t want to hear it. I know this from experience; when I speak glowingly of the man I love, I get more hostile reactions and random insults, sometimes toward him, and othertimes toward me.
The flip side to this? A woman who genuinely admires one man (even privately), who showers him with sincere compliments and listens mesmerized to his every word and watches his every action, is the greatest of flirts. The man will feel fondly toward him even if he does not reciprocate her feelings in full. He will be gentle and kind with her above and beyond her physical appearance would garner from a stranger. This is the power of true affection. And it is a shame most women have lost it.
2010/08/05 at 18:31
Above should be “The man will feel fondly toward her…”
Anyway, men can sniff out insincere flattery and brown nosing, and while they still get an ego boost, they are suspicious, and rightly so.
If a woman is not hideously deformed or overly fat, professing her genuine affection and admiration for a man (after she gets to know him a bit, that is) is usually a good thing.
Caution about appearing desperate or stalkerish. Men hate that. The admiration has to be caring, not suffocating, without expectations or demands. Unconditional love. Don’t be afraid of getting your heart broken. Most mature men know how rare it is and will think twice before tossing such a gift.
2010/08/05 at 21:52
Look, I genuinely think Narciso is a very good writer and very smart. I also think Roissy’s a gifted writer & has some good insights. I like to give credit where credit is due, I am sorry if this comes across as gushing but it is not really intended as such.
If I like reading something someone has written, I get enthusiastic and I like to share this enthusiasm. Perhaps this is a bit puppyish, but it is relatively harmless I hope. I wouldn’t like to think I was scaring anyone away by this, I would be very hurt, but I will bear it in mind.
Nor is it really a female-male thing. Vasafaxa is another example of someone who is a great writer & whose work really impresses me and I suppose I could be said to gush over her work too, but I do genuinely like it.
Where I come from, people tend to be very begrudging and it is not the done thing to praise anyone else very much, particularly those who put their head above the parapet, people (even those with talent) are expected to “serve their time” & so forth and pretend to be mediocre so as not to annoy people. I get really fed up of this.
I do think that people who feel annoyed or threatened or indeed irritated by sincere compliments I pay to others should look into their own minds and ask why they themselves feel irritated by this rather than taking it out on me.
The irony is when I am actually interested in someone romantically I can’t talk to or about them, it is the reverse situation. So I don’t think you need to worry about me gushing too much in a romantic situation, usually I can’t get any words out at all.
Although I would certainly be prepared to modify my behaviour to avoid causing unnecessary hurt or annoyance to other people, there is a limit to how far I am prepared to go in this regard and I am not really convinced of the wisdom of modifying my personality to pander to others’ insecurities. I think I would prefer to hold out for someone who likes me as I am and if I don’t find them then so be it.
2010/08/05 at 22:01
Hope: You are very smart after all. Your husband is a lucky man. I’ve copied this to give as an example to others.
2010/08/05 at 22:06
And in my experience unconditional admiration of a man (even if sincere) is not necessarily a fail-safe solution. Unconditional admiration places a tremendous burden on men which they can find very hard to live up to. It creates its own form of pressure (as does unconditional admiration of women). I also think that men need their own space and like women to have their own space too.
I agree that it’s probably not good to compliment other men round a man you are involved with, it is disrespectful. But if such man is not present, and the compliments relate to something abstract such as literary skill and analysis, and are not influenced by romantic considerations, I don’t think this applies.
There is more to life than romance and it’s possible to appreciate someone as a good writer without actually being attracted to them, it is possible to separate appreciation of style & analysis from the person themselves. Really. I don’t for instance assume that everyone who compliments me on my writing, even in glowing terms, is attracted to me, I would think it highly presumptuous to make this assumption. I think people are far too willing to assume we women just think with our hindbrain, we do have another brain as well and believe it or not there is more to life than sex.
2010/08/05 at 22:09
I don’t think anyone who isn’t socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted minds you admiring Narciso, SD.
Hope’s praises of a fellow who seems a might Mormonish were a different matter. To each her own though. And the intersection between self-knowledge, innocence and self-deception is not always worth the price of disentangling.
For my own sake, I sometimes wish I had kept the innocence, but for the sake of what I wish to accomplish, this would have been difficult, perhaps impossible.
2010/08/05 at 22:35
I don’t think any of us who comment on here are innocent in any shape or form.
I do think though that it’s important to avoid the opposite pole of being universally cynical. Sometimes what people say is really that, honestly expressed. It’s as well to bear that in mind.
I fully agree it’s difficult to know oneself and I do worry about as a woman being gamed into thinking analysis & writing in this area is good on its merits when in fact that is not the case & I have simply been seduced by the personality behind the work. But I think so long as I acknowledge the risk of this I should be okay.
2010/08/05 at 23:11
SDae, the dynamics of compliments are different when they come from a woman. It’s not fair, but that’s the nature of mixed-gender interactions. I dealt with a lot of jeers and insults before I simply decided to be very neutral and non-confrontational.
So I agree with you that the writing is good, and that there is more to life than romance. I certainly did not see your comments as gushing, but what men see is often different (even Koanic couldn’t help but remark that my husband seems Mormonish, when my man is most decidedly NOT Mormon).
It’s not really about feeling “threatened.” It’s just a competitive thing that men do, almost instinctively. Men say all kinds of insults to each other’s faces, and then they shake hands and are still quite friendly afterward. Things change when you add the female presence into the mix.
Platonic friendships are perilous between the sexes, and no matter what, we women end up losing on this one. I am therefore more forthcoming in my interactions with women. In most situations nowadays (online and offline), I prefer to chat with other women than men.
Anyway, the admiration is just one component of being an alluring woman. But it seems like you have decided to be pissed off at me for offering advice. So I’ll refrain from posting on this subject any further.
2010/08/05 at 23:27
No, I’m not pissed off. I just thought I’d better clarify matters as soon as possible, I really do worry about people thinking I have crushes when I don’t, it can cause a lot of complication if matters are not clarified.
Part of the difficulty is that I genuinely enjoy talking to men, and I would really hate to have to give this up. In real life romantic complications do not usually result very often from this, as I am good at spotting signals & diverting them.
I’m not a huge fan of platonic friendships, or sharing too much of one’s personal life with men in real life, but I think it should be possible to have a dialogue on specific subjects of interest.
I appreciate that some interaction with Roissy and Narciso can look like flirting to others but it is really just word-play, neither Roissy nor Narciso nor indeed myself can resist snappy dialogue. I think they both understand this themselves.
2010/08/05 at 23:29
For Roissy just substitute Chateau as the question (who is Roissy? what is he?) is currently going on on one of his threads. Whoever I have been chatting with, they are certainly of considerable verbal dexterity.
2010/08/05 at 23:37
“And in my experience unconditional admiration of a man (even if sincere) is not necessarily a fail-safe solution. Unconditional admiration places a tremendous burden on men which they can find very hard to live up to. It creates its own form of pressure (as does unconditional admiration of women). I also think that men need their own space and like women to have their own space too. ”
It’s conditional admiration that creates pressure. Unconditional admiration is blind to faults. I find it quite pleasant. At this point in my journey towards self knowledge, I find no one has as much information as I do in making a complete assessment of myself. Outside judgmental perspectives may occasionally generate useful insights, but generally speaking its unoriginal jazz I don’t need to hear right now, and certainly not in large or consistent doses.
Long story short, I expect my girl’s eyes to glow with the love of unconditional adoration, and for her hamster to exercise itself endlessly in reconciling an unlimited belief in my abilities with reality. This is rest to my soul.
Maybe at some later maturity or success point this will change. Maybe not.
2010/08/06 at 00:11
Well, I guess all men are different. I have been told that unconditional admiration creates pressure to be perfect all the time, but it probably depends on the individual man.
You appear to be fairly self-aware of yourself, for a man who is insecure unconditional admiration may appear to be something he feels he should, but can’t live up to. It’s in tune with the well-recognised fact that many insecure people can’t take a compliment gracefully.
In your case, either you feel you are worth the adoration or (as appears more likely) you don’t feel any pressure to live up to it.
2010/08/06 at 01:58
Well there’s a big difference between critical intellectual and verbal admiration and unconditional emotional idolization. I’m talking about the latter. I think it’s universally attractive to men. I think it’s part of how a female signals that she’s in love, will never cheat, and will do anything for you.
The former, even if flattering, necessarily creates judgments, and judgments can always be objectionable.
One of the things I enjoy about my current LTR is that English is not her first language, so we’ve always tended to communicate primarily through energy, yet she is quite intelligent and able to grasp the few concepts I wish her to understand, given time for explanation.
2010/08/19 at 20:01
Hi Johnny
I see you’re out & about on Roissy’s site.
Any chance of a new post?
2010/08/26 at 07:59
Here is a good discussion of aloof game:
http://www.realassanova.com/2010/08/my-aloof-game-explained.html
2010/09/23 at 15:52
Why the silence? You’re losing the audience you’ve built by failing to follow through on spaced repetition.
Or is it done?
2010/09/25 at 04:46
Narciso will be back; he has been away on personal business.
2010/11/12 at 01:16
Just re-reading your posts.
Would love to read a new one, you really do write so well.
2011/01/16 at 10:51
Nice post.
2011/10/09 at 21:33
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